Curse

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Translation: I realize that assassin's are vastly superior damage dealers so I'm going to change the rules of Guild Wars so that you can't include the ludicrous attack speed or the required combo that builds up the Death Blossom, and I'll make it so the warrior has a random buff for no reason whatsoever.

I don't even understand why you're arguing anymore if you'd rather argue in the context of a special Warrior 100blades Test Lab with integrated 'Fk Assassins™' technology than an actual battle in Guild Wars. When I said DB spam sin does more AOE dps than a 100b warrior, I assumed that the reader would have a level of mental competence and assume that I was talking about actual battles and not impossible situations (such as instantly casting death blossom without a combo).

Btw I bet that a dagger sin with Strength of Honor and Order of Pain does more dps than a warrior using a bow with 0 Marksmanship.

Let's compare the total damage they do in one combo.

Warrior = WWA (0.9s) + S&M-Slash (0.9s) + Autohit (0.9s) = 2.7s
Assassin = Jagged (0.25s) + Fox Fangs (0.5s) + DB (0.9s) + AAx3 (0.9s*2 + one extra free due to dual-strike) = 3.45s

Slight benefit here to the Assassin since I calculate total damage and not DPS and Assassins are allowed to go on for an extra 0.75s, but let's say this is even. Both these combos are repeatable.

Lets assume there are four targets in range of AoE and both have SoH that adds 22 damage.

WWA = ((13*N^2) + ((20+22)*N + BASE*N) = 384 + BASE*4
S&M = ((13*2N) + 22*2 + BASE*2) = 148 + BASE*2
Autohit Warrior = (13*N + 22 + BASE) = 74 + BASE

Average BASE = 26
606 + (BASE*7)/2 = 697

Jagged = (Bleeding + 22 + BASE) = Bleeding + 22 + BASE
Fox Fangs = (32 + 22 + BASE) = 54 + BASE
DB = ((43*2*N) + 43*2 + 22*2 + BASE*2) = 474 + BASE*2
Autohit Assassin = (22 + BASE)*3 = 66 + BASE*3

Bleeding = 6 DPS
Average BASE = 15.5
616 + (BASE*7)/2 + Bleeding = 690.95

Halved the base damage on both due to armour.

Conclusion = A 100b Warrior does approximately 697 damage in one combo versus a group of four while under the effect of SoH.
An Assassin does approximately 690.95 in one combo versus a group of four while under the effect of SoH.

Yes, 100b is certainly worthless.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I never said it was worthless dude... my whole point has been that 100b warriors aren't the dps monsters that assassins are. Sure you can occasionally do a massive amount of AOE, but in most cases groups aren't that big and 100b doesn't do as much as a death blossom spammer. If this wasn't the case then warriors would still be considered the best melee dpser in the game, and everyone and their mother knows that this hasn't been true since the introduction of hard mode.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

I never said it was worthless dude... my whole point has been that 100b warriors aren't the dps monsters that assassins are. Sure you can occasionally do a massive amount of AOE, but in most cases groups aren't that big and 100b doesn't do as much as a death blossom spammer. If this wasn't the case then warriors would still be considered the best melee dpser in the game, and everyone and their mother knows that this hasn't been true since the introduction of hard mode.

Yes because popular opinion clearly dictates the effectiveness off the build and not just the popularity. I just proved that 100b, a build that is notoriously bad on small groups, does comparable DPS as a DB Assassin on as few as four targets. How are Warriors inferior again?

Quote:

Translation: I realize that assassin's are vastly superior damage dealers so I'm going to change the rules of Guild Wars so that you can't include the ludicrous attack speed or the required combo that builds up the Death Blossom, and I'll make it so the warrior has a random buff for no reason whatsoever.

By your own words you say Assassins are vastly superior. I'm sorry I translated that into you thinking Warriors are useless, huge difference.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

Yes because popular opinion clearly dictates the effectiveness off the build and not just the popularity. I just proved that 100b, a build that is notoriously bad on small groups, does comparable DPS as a DB Assassin on as few as four targets. How are Warriors inferior again?

Because out of all the times you swing your weapon, more often than not the amount of foes adjacent to you will be less than 4. Again, if this weren't the case, then it would be fairly obvious that warriors would still be the best melee dps class.

Seeing as warrior is a more popular class than assassin, it probably has little to do with popular opinion. In fact, most of the warriors on this forum seem to think of their class as the underdog. Just the fact that a player has gone out of their way to use this Guild Wars forum means that they are more informed than the average player and their opinions are more based in fact than in random opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

By your own words you say Assassins are vastly superior. I'm sorry I translated that into you thinking Warriors are useless, huge difference.

It couldn't possibly mean that assassins are overpowered and that warriors are not overpowered in comparison to assassins. I don't remember saying that anything that isn't overpowered is useless.

Clearly you translated that into thinking warriors were useless since you had to edit that in as an afterthought.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Because out of all the times you swing your weapon, more often than not the amount of foes adjacent to you will be less than 4. Again, if this weren't the case, then it would be fairly obvious that warriors would still be the best melee dps class.

I disagree, the vast majority of the time I'm adjacent to at least 3-4 mobs.

Quote:

It couldn't possibly mean that assassin's are so overpowered that they turn a game that should pose a challenge in 'hard mode' into a game that could be called 'easy mode'.

Clearly you translated that into thinking warriors were useless since you had to edit that in as an afterthought.

Had to find the quote first bro.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

I disagree, the vast majority of the time I'm adjacent to at least 3-4 mobs.

Well you aren't disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with 'popular opinion' :\

If everyone was in your situation then warriors would certainly be considered the highest dps melee profession.

Outerworld · Aug 29, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Well you aren't disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with 'popular opinion' :\

The people who form this "popular opinion" are the ones who can't manage agro for crap and therefore deduce that 100b must be terrible when in actual fact it's the reverse.

By your logic, Justin Bieber must be excelent because popular opinion says so. See why that might be considered silly? Well just apply it to this situation. Popular opinion isn't always right.

aatami · Aug 29, 2011, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lariv

Dervish has skirts

It most certanly does not, dervish has robes!

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

The people who form this "popular opinion" are the ones who can't manage agro for crap and therefore deduce that 100b must be terrible when in actual fact it's the reverse.

By your logic, Justin Bieber must be excelent because popular opinion says so. See why that might be considered silly? Well just apply it to this situation. Popular opinion isn't always right.

Well if you could read more than one post at a time or if you caught the quotation marks surrounding 'popular opinion', you would realize that it's not just popular opinion that assassins are better than warriors.

Anyone who frequents this forum can no longer be considered popular opinion because they are, on average, slightly better informed than the average Guild Wars player and their opinion is more based in fact than it is in random opinions or in isolated experiences.

If you wanted popular opinion, you would survey random uninformed people in Guild Wars who only have /alliance and /all chat to base their opinions on.

Btw Justin Bieber is excellent for the demographic he is aimed at, just as Assassins are excellent at PVE dps, which is evident in the informed opinions of the majority of the users on this forum and the fact that WOTA dagger sins are used in speed clears such as MTSC over any warrior build.

If you're gonna post just to disagree with me, you might wanna address previous issues such as the versatility of assassins, or have you reconsidered your definition of versatile?

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

I never said it was worthless dude... my whole point has been that 100b warriors aren't the dps monsters that assassins are.

Yet they have shown they can be pretty much on par in real-life conditions.

So, ok, maybe Warriors aren't "the dps monsters that assassins are", but they're pretty close, surely more then you'd like to believe.

About scattering. 100b doesn't cause any scattering, it's MoP, and you'll be using it on your DB-spammer as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Btw Justin Bieber is excellent for the demographic he is aimed at, just as Assassins are excellent at PVE dps, which is evident in the informed opinions of the majority of the users on this forum and the fact that WOTA dagger sins are used in speed clears such as MTSC over any warrior build.

When it comes to general PvE, currently any melee is excellent at DPS, as they all have insane options to play.

Then, about speed clears... No one runs 100b builds in speed clears. Yeah, right.

Oh, btw, MTSC FFF also runs multiples D/any or any/D with VoS, which is functionally identical to 100b, likely preferred for its mantainability and ease of use with the scythe hitting multiple targets.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

When it comes to general PvE, currently any melee is excellent at DPS, as they all have insane options to play.

Then, about speed clears... No one runs 100b builds in speed clears. Yeah, right.

Oh, btw, MTSC FFF also runs multiples D/any or any/D with VoS, which is functionally identical to 100b, likely preferred for its mantainability and ease of use with the scythe hitting multiple targets.

actually MTSC groups prefer all of their melee to be WOTA sins whether or not they're split path or main... especially since there isn't a tremendous amount balling or hitting enough targets to be worth it (like in most of guild wars). good job finding a single speed clear using 100blades. did you mean to prove something or did you just want to show me how the mechanics of FoWsc is an isolated case that benefits from using 100b?

If you want to believe that warriors are close to assassins in raw PVE dps, that's fine by me. I don't play a warrior so it doesn't matter either way. Just don't go telling people that warriors are better damage dealers... we have enough warriors in Guild Wars.

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

actually MTSC groups prefer all of their melee to be WOTA sins whether or not they're split path or main... especially since there isn't a tremendous amount balling or hitting enough targets to be worth it (like in most of guild wars).

Still they can be replaced, so your assertion ("WOTA sins are used over any Warrior build") is unaccurate.

Enemies not balling up would be a problem with DB as well, and so far we've been comparing AoE options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

good job finding a single speed clear using 100blades. did you mean to prove something or did you just want to show me how the mechanics of FoWsc is an isolated case that benefits from using 100b?

Speed clears are isolated cases by themselves. The game is not just vanquishing a map in 15 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

If you want to believe that warriors are close to assassins in raw PVE dps, that's fine by me. I don't play a warrior so it doesn't matter either way. Just don't go telling people that warriors are better damage dealers... we have enough warriors in Guild Wars.

Fine with me either, I play both and know how to play both and enjoy playing both, so I got my facts straight instead of basing my whole assertions on partial knowledge and "general opinions".

Come back when you've actually tried other options and know what you're talking about, or at least when you have learned how to hold aggro properly to play 100b/VoS effectively, then we'll talk.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

facts straight? plenty of math in this thread. clearly you've read it

takes at least 4 (with rank14 SoH) mobs for a war to do the same dps as a sin (assuming sin doesn't crit and doesn't double hit from dagger mastery). at least 6 mobs without SoH. any less and the sin is leagues ahead of the war. yep... sounds pretty close to me

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

facts straight? plenty of math in this thread. clearly you've read it

I did read it.

You didn't provide any counter-fact, just added more pointless math and blabbering about "popular opinions", but still failed to make any point beyond the fact that Sins are preferred as damage dealers in ONE particular team build for speed clears over anything else.

Sorry, not convinced yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

takes at least 4 (with rank14 SoH) mobs for a war to do the same dps as a sin (assuming sin doesn't crit and doesn't double hit from dagger mastery). at least 6 mobs without SoH. any less and the sin is leagues ahead of the war. yep... sounds pretty close to me

This, by what equation?

What builds are you trying to compare now?

Leagues ahead?

Didn't you just say this thread was only about maths?

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I did read it.

You didn't provide any counter-fact, just added more pointless math and blabbering about "popular opinions", but still failed to make any point beyond the fact that Sins are preferred as damage dealers in ONE particular team build for speed clears over anything else.

Sorry, not convinced yet.

ummm... I said math. Don't know what my point about MTSC has anything to do with it. instead of 'l2 hold aggro' or 'l2 ball', why not l2 read instead?

let me copy + paste for you so we don't have another herp my derp moment:

Lets assume there are four targets in range of AoE and both have SoH that adds 22 damage.

WWA = ((13*N^2) + ((20+22)*N + BASE*N) = 384 + BASE*4
S&M = ((13*2N) + 22*2 + BASE*2) = 148 + BASE*2
Autohit Warrior = (13*N + 22 + BASE) = 74 + BASE

Average BASE = 26
606 + (BASE*7)/2 = 697

Jagged = (Bleeding + 22 + BASE) = Bleeding + 22 + BASE
Fox Fangs = (32 + 22 + BASE) = 54 + BASE
DB = ((43*2*N) + 43*2 + 22*2 + BASE*2) = 474 + BASE*2
Autohit Assassin = (22 + BASE)*3 = 66 + BASE*3

Bleeding = 6 DPS
Average BASE = 15.5
616 + (BASE*7)/2 + Bleeding = 690.95

Halved the base damage on both due to armour.

Conclusion = A 100b Warrior does approximately 697 damage in one combo versus a group of four while under the effect of SoH.
An Assassin does approximately 690.95 in one combo versus a group of four while under the effect of SoH.

Now with a minimum of 4 adjacent mobs required to match assassin dps WITH SoH (and 6 without), you're telling me that warrior dps and assassin dps is pretty close? so much for getting your facts straight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

This, by what equation?

What builds are you trying to compare now?

Leagues ahead?

Didn't you just say this thread was only about maths?

derp

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Now with a minimum of 4 adjacent mobs required to match assassin dps WITH SoH (and 6 without), you're telling me that warrior dps and assassin dps is pretty close? so much for getting your facts straight.

So, how about doing the maths and showing the results of the same calculations for less than 4 adjacent mobs?

You're proving nothing unless you provide this data.

Show what "leagues ahead" means to you.

Btw, hitting more than 3 enemies is pretty common pretty much everywhere, it doesn't take that much to nullify the gap making these "leagues ahead".

If anything, you're proving that 1 on 1 the Sin is quicker. Big deal.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So, how about doing the maths and showing the results of the same calculations for less than 4 adjacent mobs?

You're proving nothing unless you provide this data.

Show what "leagues ahead" means to you.

actually I'm proving everything since you can easily do the math yourself for ANY number of mobs. why I would copy + paste the same equation over and over again is beyond me (if that isn't too difficult for you, since reading apparently is).

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

actually I'm proving everything

You're proving that in real life conditions (hitting a group of four, and not just one training dummy at the Isle of the Nameless) Warrior and Sin have comparable AoE damage rates.

LEAGUES AHEAD, my eye.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Btw, hitting more than 3 enemies is pretty common pretty much everywhere, it doesn't take that much to nullify the gap making these "leagues ahead".

If anything, you're proving that 1 on 1 the Sin is quicker. Big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You're proving that in real life conditions (hitting a group of four, and not just one training dummy at the Isle of the Nameless) Warrior and Sin have comparable AoE damage rates.

LEAGUES AHEAD, my eye.

lol

Translation: I don't actually understand the equation and math, along with reading, is too difficult for me to handle.

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

lol

Translation: I don't actually understand the equation and math, along with reading, is too difficult for me to handle.

Translation: I don't have a point, everyone here is contraddicting me, I can't bring any argument, so I'll resort to insults.

I'll go find a reading course and improve.

I'm pretty sure you'll still have no argument when I'm back, and keep on twisting maths to your likings.